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I'm sure that that was the view that Roosevelt had of Chiang. He didn't understand Chinese history, philosophy-- and who does? I mean, the people who claim to don't, do they?

Well, Milton Johnson did, I think, pretty well.

The Ambassador? How did he come to understand it?

Studying it. He lived there from 1907 on.

In the foreign service?

Yes, and became Ambassador. Didn't you know him?

Oh, barely, that was all. Just barely. I knew him very, very superficially.

I saw no signs of deterioration in our relationships with Chiang, except a growing disillusionment, you know, that attacked everybody about what these Chinese would be able to do. I mean, they never seemed able quite to accomplish anything in particular, and of course the stories began to leak in that they were spending money like drunken sailors in Chungking and that they were living with elegance and magnificence while the country was starving.

These are the things that I begin to pick up after the war. Now, whether it was during it, or--