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somewhat noisy protest, but then they shut up very quickly, and I never knew why. I remember Dubinsky said, “Well, we couldn't put it over, that's all. Didn't have the strength to put it over.”

Word had reached them, undoubtedly, that a decision had been made. They weren't prepared to fight for it. Now, what Hillman's part in that was, I don't know. Because Hillman, you see, was out exercising quite a lot of authority--not recognized by the labor people. I mean, they were awfully sore at him, out there, all except the C.I.O. elements. They were all out for him, but the othe labor people were very angry with him.

Of course, they weren't in the Convention as delegates, either, except in occasional spots, you know. They were just lookers-on. Then there were some labor people who were delegates, when they came from a community where they had good standing. Then they had an occasional delegate. An occasional labor man had been nominated as a delegate, and was there, But they voted with their delegations, you see. I mean, nine times out of ten, that was what was done. They voted with the delegation.

You don't remember seeing Wallace out there?

Well, I remember seeing him. But I remember seeing him and being assured that he was going to be nominated,