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Roger-- whom I consider a very thoughtful person-- could have on someone as dynamically charismatic and understandably ego- dominated as Jesse.

Isn't Roger Wilkins Roy's nephew?

Nephew, yes.

And wasn't he an Assistant Secretary of Labor under a Democratic administration?

He was in the Department of Justice when Ramsey Clark was Attorney General.

Yes, I wish that it were possible for Jesse to back his personal charisma with solid organizational people, but I see no signs of it. Maybe because I just don't know enough about it, but I see no effects.

Let me expand on civil rights in the international sphere. Have you been watching what's been happening in South Africa for some time?

Of course. I've been watching that for years and years and years. I visited South Africa in '76, just before the Soweto riots.