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strength on the part of the subordinate group for those who survive. That's ironic. But that happened in America during slavery too. The blacks who survived apparently were strong enough to survive and that included the slave trade and the transportation from Africa.

Did you by any chance meet the person who's now the senior member of Parliament while you were there, Mrs. Helen Suzman?

Of course. I met her there and I met her here too.

Yet she's been able to keep protesting with apparently no serious consequences. Would she be able to if she were not a member of Parliament?

Helen Suzman is a very complex and skillful person. She apparently makes little or no overt compromises, in terms of what she believes and what she says. But she has survived-- and I presume it would be extremely difficult for the government to cut her short from fulfilling her role. [TAPE INTERRUPTION]

This is a continuation of the interview with Dr. Kenneth B. Clark on April 4, 1985. Dr. Clark, you were just making an observation that you did not sense that Helen Suzman was a direct power in South Africa. We may have lost part of that on the end of the tape.