Session: 1234567891011121314         Page 408409410411412413414415416417418419420421422423424425426427428429430431432433434435436437438439440441442443444445446447448449450451452453454455456457458459460461462463464465466467468469470471472473474475476477478479480481482483484485486487488489490 of 763

Well, even as I said that it was clear that she not a power in South Africa-- as I said that, it became very clear to me that it's sort of obvious that anyone who raises serious questions about government's racial policies in South Africa would not be a power.

What is interesting to me though is that as far as I can see, in spite of her clear and persistent position against the apartheid politics, she did not seem to me then, nor do I have any evidence now that she is a heroine among blacks. The blacks with whom I talked did not talk glowingly about Helen Suzman, nor did they talk disparagingly about her.

Interestingly enough, blacks in South Africa impressed me as being very matter of fact about those things. Looking back on it, that is an interesting observation. I did not observe or have any evidence that among blacks in South Africa there were any white heroes or heroines. The apartheid policy really resulted in a sort of a psychological distancing. You know, in the United States you had the Abolitionists, you had liberals, you had the more recent civil rights movement, you had a number of whites in part of it, until we got the Black Power nonsense. I talked with some of the people, the white leadership, of the Council on Race Relations in South Africa. I didn't see in them any kind of fervor that would elicit from blacks an alliance or identification. The South African pattern is to me quite different from the American pattern, and that's one area in which I disagree with Andy Young, that the civil rights struggle in