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offered a blank check for me to be consultant to them. And I said no. They introduced me to Christian Bernard. In fact, they brought Christian Bernard to my office.

We're talking about the surgeon that pioneered heart transplants?

Yes, that's right. And he came and tried to be very persuasive about the contribution that I could make by identifying myself with liberal white South Africans, who were seeking progress and justice without bloodshed. And I refused.

Even while the South African regime is imposing all these strictures on the blacks, did you sense that they were interested in better education, particularly better training for jobs for blacks, simply because of the need of black labor?

No, I didn't sense that at all.

Not at all?

No, I didn't. Which I thought was self-defeating. No, actually the white South African government is in a quandary. On the one hand, they know they need black labor and they know that -- certainly by now they must know that as our industrial society gets more and more technological and what not, they will need