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Do you feel that Clarence Mitchell would have been a good Executive Secretary, a good leader?

He certainly was an excellent lobbyist. I felt that in the last few years of his life, when he overlapped Roy's successor, Benjamin Hooks, he didn't seem to me to have the courage to say what was to me quite obvious, that Benjamin Hooks was incompetent. But maybe by that time he'd sort of given up.

I don't recall whether I asked you whether you had ever had any dealings with Louis Martin.

Oh, sure. A great deal.

Who fairly recently, a few years ago, was portrayed by the WASHINGTON POST in, I believe, its Style Section as the godfather of the Black Caucus.

He may have been. He's a very balanced, realistic person. I wish he had more influence on them now than he appears to. I don't know. Okay?

Okay. Another specific question coming-- something that happened fairly recently, I believe I saw your name on a program for the fund-raising dinner for the Paul Robeson scholarship, legal scholarship fund.