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More so than Nelson Rockefeller might have?

Yes. And with-- I said to you that Nelson had a sense of humor, which I liked. And he could disagree with-- or at least I felt that we could disagree with him without his holding it seriously. For example, Cuomo said he was coming to our Bicentennial Convocation, and because we had a difference of opinion with him-- at least my interpretation was-- he didn't show up. So that insulted not only the Regents, but it insulted [Jacob K.] Javits, whom they gave an honorary degree to, [Henry] Commager, Walter Cronkite, my very good friend [Robert] Bob Merton. We gave about five or six honorary degrees to rather distinguished people. The Governor didn't show up. He sent Al 1. Bello, who gave a very good talk, by the way.

Well, I felt-- I felt embarrassed about this. And I think it was embarrassing to him. And certainly it was something that these honorees-- it was a Bicentennial Convocation, you know. Two hundred years of the Regents, and the oldest state government body in the nation. And here's a man who had the reputation for being very intellectual and intelligent.

Well, couldn't this be interpreted as being quite petty?

Yes. My feeling about Mr. Cuomo is that he really feels that he has all the answers to everything. Not just education. He doesn't feel that he needs support from any other sources except those that he and-picks. That's my personal feeling. I may be wrong. And a number