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operations of the New York City public schools. But I don't think that'll ever come about. Max Rubin's idea. I keep reminding him of that. I said, “Max, I didn't agree with you when you first proposed that, but as I look at the New York City public schools and the Board of Education, I'm coming around to your position more and more.”

Have you ever been under the impression that many of the teachers-- I mean, most of the teachers-- are quite disenchanted with the whole school administration, consider headquarters and a board that are this terrible bureaucracy?

Well, that's what decentralization was supposed to cure, but don't think it did. Now we have thirty-two exceedingly ineffective school boards. And that may be not all there'll be. I have to say something positive before this tape is over.

Now in the last couple of years though hasn't there been even additional turmoil there, especially [Frank J.] Macchiarola?

He's no longer--

He left about January of '83?

Yes. He's head of the New York City Partnership. I had lunch with him not too long ago.