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What about the black banks such as the one in Harlem. I believe that there may be a handful down in Washington. Do you have any impression on--?

Some of them seem to be operating really effectively. The Freedom Bank in New York seems to be, after having a rather rough time, seems to be coming back within the past few years in effectiveness. Carver, Federal Savings and Loan seem to be holding its own end more, and as you said there are some in Washington that seem to be doing alright. Atlanta, Chicago, Los Angeles. However, I must say to you that I do not believe, and I'm going back to E. Franklin Frazier's analysis of black businesses, that these business--most successful of them are banks, begin to approach the level of operation, the net worth consistent with the proportion of blacks in the general population. I do not know--and by the way, E. Franklin Frazier was clobbered after writing his pretty objective analysis of the limitations of black business. He was clobbered by blacks, not in terms of his facts. I don't think anyone was able to refute his facts, but because they may have thought that it was disloyal for a black social scientist to deal with those facts publicly.

The Washington Post just a few days ago had an extensive story on the black banks in the capital area, which it said de-regulation is throwing some tough challenges, new challenges, that they will have to reach out more to be successful.