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I have a tremendous admiration for him, because he really takes risks.

Including Presidents.

Yes. That's not un-American to me.

Would it be the flipside of this coin that when there are these celebrity level breakthroughs, wherever they are, but especially outside of athletics where more intellect is generally required, and certainly in evidence--

Would you mind repeating that? [laughter]

That these breakthroughs do improve the climate for an acceptance of those not so talented, not so competent, but nonetheless finally they know they can be a clerk, and a good clerk in a department store. They can be a cashier, and a competent cashier in a supermarket, and so on.

You think that there could be some transference?

Yes. At least, when you look in retrospect at how so many whites felt about blacks, that they couldn't believe that they could have that competence.

That could be true. There could be some evidence that that's