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business of various sorts would have a hell of a time getting started. It's like saying, “You know, we can't hire you because you don't have experience, and if you don't get experience you can't be hired.” You'll never get experience. Data Black have had experience. In fact, Percy and I had said to the head of the operation that we thought an important program for the Joint Center would be periodic national samples and we would do it at cost for them. The idea just was left dangling or never picked up for the next thing we heard was years later, they'd gone to Gallup.

You just mentioned that Data Black did work for IBM, and I assume Data Black's done work for other corporations.

Yes, we've done for Ebony, [ ] Johnson put it [?]. I believe they did two or three studies.

Now, were these other studies essentially to determine markets for them or was there a public relations aspect by itself?

Public relations for the most part. For Ebony we were concerned with attitudes. what do blacks think about political personalities or civil rights leaders, and civil rights issues and what were some major concerns of blacks? The kinds of things that the Joint Center got Gallup to do, we were doing. We had the first representative national sample of blacks which was rather costly for us to develop. The Joint Center went and got Gallup to do the same thing without any consultation. We would have been happy to talk