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Center, I was always awed by people who believed that they could affect the lives of other people, and somewhat afraid, I guess.

My role at Northside, for the fifteen years I was associated with my wife, was that of research director and observer of the process, rather than a participant in it.

Is there anything else that you recall a bout your period at Columbia?

Columbia? It was by no means so exciting as my period at Howard. I looked upon Columbia as a necessary and inescapable step toward the credentials, you know; not particularly intellectually stimulating.

You said, you applied to only two schools for your PhD. Had you looked at such places as -- was Yale large in psychology at that time?

No. It became larger in the later forties, as I recall, and in a direction that I was not particularly interested in. University of Chicago in psychology was, to me, too constrictive. You see, again I have to remind you that my view of psychology was determined by Francis Cecil Sumner, you know, who had this broad view. I could not have been happy anywhere where I was restricted to rats. You know, behaviorism as such. Maybe I should have thought of University of Michigan, but I didn't. But it didn't matter, because I knew where I wanted to go.