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I don't think the average person would see, is admirable. I guess that's all I should say, so as not to seem --

Yes. To deal directly with your question, as I see it, there was and is a continuing pattern and strain, and the same basic theme can be found in these seemingly different significant events, or major events in my life. The concern with children motivated the research, Mamie's and mine. The concern with children that led Mamie and me and some of my friends to undergo -- oh hell, I don't want to sound too sentimental, but the trials and tribulations, the risks, the hardships -- you know -- that were necessarily involved in the founding of Northside and keeping it afloat, and weathering the crisis of Northside.

Yes. This concern, this desire to make our professional training available to the community, to turn it into something that would help other people --

To verbalize these things is sort of embarrassing, because actually, you know, it sounds so damn -- well, to put it very bluntly, almost self-congratulatory. Something like that. That self-congratulatory aspect can, I think, be balanced by a clear recognition of the factor of, no choice. You know. Mamie and I did not, and were not, able to sit down and say, “Look, here are a variety of options, for our life, “and calculate that if we took Option 1, it would have these pluses and these minuses; if we took Option 2, it would have this number of pluses, that number--

No. That's not the way we lived, or still live, our lives. In fact, I am more living that kind of life now, since my retirement,