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We had a meeting, I think it was when I first met you, in 1963. I recall that you said that one thing that you did fault him for was that he did not give up his minstership, that he did not give up the cloth while he was an active politician.

Yes. Because I was naive then, too. I keep saying “was.” Maybe the more accurate term would be “is.”

I do believe that even someone like Adam, who seemed so totally incapable of accepting himself, in an extreme sense, you know, of all of -- he had no, Adam had no illusions about Adam. I still wondered why did he feel the necessity of having these ties to the cloth, the church. And I guess the reason I make that kind of childish, naive statement is because my mother conditioned me. You know, her identification with the church, and her attempt to socialize me as someone who would join the church or, you know, be an Episcopal priest -- as a psychologist and as someone who experienced it, I have to face the fact that it had some impact on me. Even as I tried to grow up and be more realistic and matter of fact and what not, there are certain things that I don't think people should do.

And when I go back and try to find out, “Why the hell do you think that?” It certainly isn't necessarily logic, or emprical views, you know. But early childhood conditioning and socialization.

It did not occur to you that Adam would be using the church organization as an actual political organization when he needed one during a campaign?