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No, and I don't think that Ray should have been shocked or surprised, because they'd been having arguments and conflicts off and on.

Now, when the black civil rights leaders, called for a while the Big Six, were working -- also, about this time I believe -- there was also, some time after, A. Philip Randolph organized his Negro

American Labor Council -- Powell got up on the streets at a mass rally in Harlem and said the only reason Randolph was doing this was because his own union was creaking, and he had to do this to restore his power. Now, this was at a time when the civil rights leaders needed support. First of all, were you aware of this particular public attack or this kind of public attack?

I don't remember that one specifically, but Adam was, you know, able to say whatever he wanted to say about any of the civil rights leaders, and no one of them would be immune, with the possible exception of Martin Luther King, and I'm not even sure of that.

I've heard him attack Martin Luther King.

Right. I never heard him attack Malcolm X.

I was going to bring up Malcolm. They briefly had a working relationship, but that fell apart, too.

Yes. Well, any working arrangement with Adam would eventually have to fall apart, unless the person were totally subordinate to him. And by the way, I knew that too.