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any human being. You know, no matter what the ends.

But I do remember the group of demonstrators before the UN, largely if not all black, did accuse Bunche of something.

At that time, that whole situation was beyond my understanding and comprehension. You know, all I knew about it was what I read in the newspapers. And I remember having one curious, typical Ken Clark off the wall notion -- that the conflict between Lumumba and Tshombe served to remind me of something I had forgotten, namely, that African slavery could only be successful to the extent that Africans were accessories to the enslavement of other Africans.

That's what that whole situation focussed in my mind, you know. It was another one of the things that sort of freed me of some romantic Africanisms. The notion, you know, that all a person had to do is to be not white, in order to be virtuous. These experiences help you to grow up, and the Tshombe-Lumumba -- what was the name of the country again? -- Guinea? That's right --

And I really -- silly-- the sum total of that period of the African turbulence, for me, was to help me to see more clearly that, just as the Europeans and the Asians were capable of intragroup conflict and violence and what not, so are the Africans. And that they will have to go through their period of non-rational turbulence and violence, just like other human beings, and certainly the present relationship between Uganada and Kenya --

Well, on other words, what happened, at that time, Lumumba you felt was -- that occurred strictly within that country?