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Social Dynamics Research Institute. That was a plus, you know. And I could tell Gallagher, and Jeb (Joseph) Barmack, whom I love, who was chairman of the department, “OK, you guys, -- turn the Institute over to Larry and Claire. Let them direct it. I'm going to do this job.”

I came over to set up the Metropolitan Applied Research Center, under the financial support and sponsorship of the Field Foundation -- free. You know, no strings attached. I mean, the commitment was in the proposal, in our charter. Independent of the college.

I went to the chancellor of the university, Val Bowker, and it's interesting that I went to Val Al? to talk about the rationale, you know, the purposes and the methods of MARC, but I didn't go to Gallagher, who was the president of the college, and who was on my board at HARYOU at my invitation, but who also presided over the bureaucratic heads of the research department -- oh, Idon't know what they call it; it was some office of research within the college that I had my problems with..And Gallagher knew, because I was telling him about these problems, and he always promised to expedite things, and he never got around to expediting them. So I left him with -- but I didn't talk to him about MARC because I knew that MARC was going to have nothing to do with him -- but I went to Bowker.

Now, why did I go to Bowker? Well, not necessarily because I knew him better than I knew Gallaher, because I'd know Gallagher from the time he was president of Talledega. And I ‘d just met