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then a major problem, and which by the way is still a major problem, because one of the contracts of my present venture is addressing itself to the same problem, namely, increasing the number of minorities in the foreign service of the United States. That was in '61. And I set up for the personnel department of the State Department, then -- obviously got clearance, I guess, I just must have been pure -- what we called our “Foreign Scholars Program”, which was a program designed to increase the number of minority young people who could pass that very difficult foreign service entrance exam; the written is probably the most difficult seledctive examination in the country, and the number of minority youngsters who were able to pass it was a trickle. So we set up a program to increase that number, and also prepare them for passing the oral.

And I presume, the people in the personnel department of the Foreign Service with whom I worked recommended or suggested that if they needed a black member of the Herter Commission, that I would be the black member they recommended.

I enjoyed it. I enjoyed Herter, who was indefatigable -- I mean, that man, he walked on his braces, but we would have to beg for mercy to have him call some kind of “time” in our sessions. You know, we'd go down to Washington and meet two or three days straight. I met some people on that whom I still have as friends -- Joseph Johnson, who was formerly the head of the Carnegie Endowment, James Perkinds. James Perkins and I became very good friends. Milton Katz. Watson, the younger brother of the IB M Watson, who died recently.