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For the most part, it was busy work. The advantages that I've had in serving on these things -- I did get an opportunity to see how they worked from the inside, you know. And most of the -- well, what I was left with would be, for the most part, the limits of any serious change. I don't mean tosay that cynically, but few of my governmental involvements left me with any -- with a sense that, here is an instrument, here is a vehicle for significant changes toward equity or justice, something of that sort. The closest I came to that was my UDC experience, the Urban Development Corporation. But wow, what -- this was the basis upon which it was destroyed, I think, that it really could have been a fairly effective instrument for change.

And when that became clear, it seemed to me that it became clear that it couldn't be permitted to continue.

Could you be a little more specific on that point, Dr. Clark?

Could I do it next session?

Sure.

I didn't even know I was going to go into that until you asked the question, you know, about -- I will talk as long as you want me to about Urban Development Corporation. Again, you know, I was a founding member of that. It was the most positive of the experiences that I had, although it was really a quasi-governmental agency, in that it was sent up by the New York legislation with extraordinary powers. And it was a mistake, because Nelson Rockefeller