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Am I correct then in drawing the inference that while you learned from this, you don't feel you had much effect as to what their goals were?

Hell, no. Oh no.

You all but said that, except for the Child Labor Commission, where the actual clout came from outside the Commission --

-- The Commission didn't feel that. You know, it writes up its history as if it were the significant force in getting more humane approach to the exploitation of children. And I think it has a right to present that picture. Without regard to its reality. But I didn't go to a meeting of the Child Labor Commission without being aware of two things -- first, you know, that what ever clout it had, it was no longer necessary. And it's extremely difficult for agencies to decide that it no longer has a function. In spite of, that it might reach that status through success, you know.

That's one of the things I thought about when I was heading MARC, you know -- that it was very difficult for me to even suggest to my staff or to my board that maybe there was no real role of power that an agency such as ours could have had. Aside from good will and good intentions, you know, and may be enjoying the fray.

I don't know of -- I can't offhand think of any agency that voluntarily, you know, in terms of rational -- they didn't decide, “Well, we've had it. Whatever assets we have, let's turn over to somebody else.”