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though. When you were looking for a verb to describe the effect of Mangum's taking over and leading this group, first you felt that “contamination” was too strong, and then you used the word “change.” Would you say maybe he kind of diluted the vigor of it? Would that be an accurate characterization of what you were getting at?

Yeah. Why did you come back to that? I guess so -- except that it really had no vigor. It was like a newborn, so it couldn't be just a dilution of the vigor, because there wasn't much vigor to dilute. It seemed to me too much of an instrument of his own personal ambitions, early, and I think was so perceived by others, and/hence the slowness of its growth.

Also, I believe in BLACK GHETTO, you made a --

DARK GHETTO.

DARK GHETTO -- I was going to ask you about these adjectives, too -- but anyway, you made reference to the fact that after it got larger, it was “impotent in crisis”, and I got the impression that it was not necessarily impotent in crisis before it expanded. Is that true?

No, before it expanded -- you mean the Group, or?

The Group.

You mean the Ben Dyett group?

Yes.