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-- he was always close to Wagner. But it was largely unofficial.

That was even in the first two Wagner administrations?

Right. And certainly, in my communication with Wagner, in the HARYOU controversy, Ray would arrange the meetings. I remember, we'd have some at Gracie Mansion in the mornings. Wagner would come down in his pajamas, and robe, of course. But Ray was our liaison person there.

Now, who was your liaision when Lindsay became mayor?

When Lindsay became mayor, the group, the Hundred Black Men, was under the Mangum thing. It was just-- let me see, I was out of HARYOU. And by the way, when I came out of HARYOU, you know, resigned from that, after being trounced beautifully by Mr. Powell, I withdrew from active involvement, until I took over the Metropolian Applied Research Center, and it with a different approach, would use MARC (which is the acronym of Metropolitan Applied Research Center), I would use that as the vehicle for direct communication with Lindsay, on a number of things, among them the Forest Hills thing. You know, where MARC and I would bring together people like Roy Wilkins and Vernon Jordan, others, Puerto Rican leaders, to move in to City Hall and sit and talk with the mayor, and tell him what our positions were. Well, he knew what our position was, but what we expected -- which we didn't get, by the way. Glorious defeats, one after another. I mean, I should write a book on