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Yes, before college. Maybe late high school. I mean, when it was time to go to college, and when you began to broaden your outlook and think about what you wanted to do with life, where you were going to go next. I think it was that time.

Up through high school, what kinds of studies interested you most?

I liked everything. I really did like everything. I liked everything, and I was very good in math, and I decided to major in math when I went to college, which is what I started out to do. But I loved it. The school was poor, and later I realized how much we didn't learn. For example, there was one point when I realized I had learned no English grammar - - none. And I had learned no history. But those gaps, you weren't aware of when you were coming through high school. But you could look back and see that the school was very poor. There was hardly anything you really learned.

What was the college you went to?

Howard University.

Were there any whites in the university at that time?

At that time -- no. No.

When you described your discovery that you had not learned some of these essentials, was this relative to some of the other students' level of attainment? Or just because --

-- oh yes, indeed. No, no, it was relative to the fact that I