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discouraged, you know, and so my husband persuaded me, and it didn't take much work, to go into psychology.

What year were you in then?

I was in my sophomore year, second year. And the third year, I went into psychology.

Which year did you actually meet Kenneth Clark?

I actually met him the first year, though I didn't come to know him until the second year.

Just as a personal reminiscence here, can you remember you reaction to him, either when you first met him or when you came to know him?

Yes. Well, I was in awe of a lot of the seniors, and particularly senior men who were engaged in things like editing the paper, or managing the campus, and he was editor of -- no, he wasn't the editor, but he was working on the paper. Anyway, he was from that group of people who were doing things, you know, whom everybody admired. And I think that had a lot to dox with it.

When I went to school they used to have the term “Big Man On Campus.” Is that a term that was used at Howard University?

Well, it wasn't term, but it was a concept, yes, because there were a few. And there were a few who were big men academically or, you know, involved in management circles, and then there were a