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And it became very clear, when we devised certain additional techniques, really, to add to the study. When I first did it, I only did it with the drawings of two children. The line drawings. And when we did it later, we added a coloring technique. We added some choice techniques. We broadened the whole scope of it. And we could pickup from the children's drawings, when we had the children draw themselves -- and they would draw themselves white. We asked them why, and we found out, they don't want to be black. They don't want to “draw theirselves black.”

But that was because we had added this technique, to find that out

This came out beginning with just the drawings or --?

No, I started with the line drawings, in the first Master's thesis work. But later, when we got the Rosenwald Fellowship, and we took a larger sample, we expanded the techniques of that study.

What were some of the other techniques, besides the coloring, etc?

There were questions that we asked the children. I'd have to go back and refresh my memory about that. But we had several questions that we asked, like, what color would you like to be? Simple things like that. In addition to the drawings and the coloring, whatever else we did.

When did the full impact of feelings of self-hatred strike you? How many years had gone by at this time, what stage of your work?