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findings. But I think that it had a profound effect, really, on both of us, in terms of what it made happen in our fields of interest. I really think so. But at the time, it was a pure research project. We were paid to get these collatations? out, and we had to get them out, and we had to get them out on time.

When did you start thinking seriously about going into remedial work?

With children?

With children, to do something about what you'd found out?

Well, I started, not thinking to do something about what I'd found out, but just trying to get into the field, and I got a job with the American Public Health Association, and it was absolutely the most ghastly experience I'd ever had in my life. And it was my first job experience. It had nothing to do with children. It had to do with public health. And I said to Kenneth one night, I said, “Kenneth, I just can't work with people. And certainly not these kinds of people.” I said, “I have to do something by myself.”

That's how it really started. I just knew I couldn't work under people. I just had to be doing something on my own. And he said, “Well, why don't you do something on your own?” So he encouraged it, actually. And I left the American Public Health Association, went to the Riverdale Childrens' Association, which was a happy thing, because there I could work directly with children. And it was while I was there that it seemed that that was what I wanted to do.