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Oh yes. It has to be. Definitely. It has to.

Or you would have this other kind of difficulty with the children.

Oh yes. Yes. No, we have to get the parents first.

You find very often, though, there's only one parent who places the child --

-- one parent may bring the child, but we're always trying to involve both parents. Or even a substitute parent, where there is one.

Or a substitute. Do you find this in quite a few cases?

Oh, sure. Sure. Substitute fathers, mostly.

There is a good deal of consensual living and changing --

-- hm -- mm-- hm mm.

-- and this happens especially among the families of disturbed children.

Very definitely.

There's cause and effect here.

That's right. That's right.

Could you tell me a little more about the parents' councils? I believe you told me you had two different parents' councils, is that right?