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What were the circumstances, incidentally, of his leaving the staff, as you saw it?

Well, I think he got tired of it. And it wasn't his thing, so to speak, and he was more and more immersed in the college and in the academic side of what he was doing. He wanted to write and do research, and he really couldn't do all of them.

He was getting spread a little thing.

Yes. That's right.

Incidentally, you've mentioned the initial reaction of the agencies, government, private even, ministerial, religious, that you sought to interest originally, and they weren't interested, I believe you said, because they thought they were already providing these services.

Yes.

Could you characterize their reaction further? For instance, was there any just plain indifference? Was there any plain hostility, or any other reason, thought you might be overlapping them? Any other characterizations you can give to their initial attitudes?

Well, I don't like to do that. But I think some of the people that we approached may have been biased. I mean, we were, after all, both black. It was at a time when you didn't have black agencies, except for the Urban League and the NAACP. You didn't have black agencies. So, maybe the concept that we would set up something didn't