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enormous, it's so gigantic. As a matter of fact it's so
gigantic that a lot of people won't go to those places. So
here we are. The circle is completed and what are we
talking about? In Chatanooga, we're talking about
eliminating all bad housing in ten years. Which is what we
said in 1953.
We started off this conversation about these two men
that you said have, Larsen was in there too but-
Gardner and Rouse.
Yeah, influenced you and-lets start with Gardner,
Gardner is a tall, light built, strong nose,
penetrating eyes, enormously thoughtful man who has devoted,
I guess, practically every minute of his life to the public
good, really extraordinary. He's never made any money.
Didn't have any money. The only form of money that he
enjoyed was having a car and a driver which he had when he
was secretary of HEW. And I think instead of taking any pay
at the Coalition, or he took half pay at the Coalition, if
the Coalition would supply him with a car and a driver.
That's his total extravagance. He has enormous influence on
people. Harry Luce used to like to convince people by
vigorous argument. John Gardner likes to convince people by
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