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was all about. And he had a man in charge of the finances who really belonged to the old ledger and quill pen era. And this was part of the disintegration of the city. And I don't know whether John--John may have started it But under Beame they got the capital budget and the operating budget and they didn't keep the capital budget and the operating budget separate. And in effect they were beginning to use capital budget sums for operating expenses. And that's what really got the City, that's when the city started to go broke. And that's when, what's his name from Lazare Freres came in.

Rohaytin.

Rohaytin. And then M.A.C. was created. And finally got it straightened out.

You know Rohaytin?

Yeah. Felix, the cat? Mm-hmm. I know Felix, and I know Liz. Liz is on the board of the Library.

What are your impressions of Rohaytin?

I think he's an enormously shrewd person who has enormous political ambitions and would do quite a lot of things to satisfy them.

Political ambitions to do what?