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up abroad; spoke very good French--as a matter of fact, he and I used to love to take Roy Larson to lunch and we'd walk on either side of him, speaking French to each other over Roy's head--

[tape interruption.]

--he was my boss then; I ended up by being his boss later on; and we got on just beautifully under both circumstances. Roy was an extremely friendly, capable man. He'd started in the circulation department and was really a great expert at circulation. He was in a sense Harry's partner, and he--at least ended up as Harry's partner by the time I'd gotten there--there'd been all sort of internecine feuds with Ralph Ingersoll and Perry Prentice and so on, but by the time I was there Roy was clearly the number two man, Harry being the number two man. And Harry had complete confidence in Roy; not only had confidence in him, but also was very good at getting Roy to do all his dirty work for him. Harry would want to get rid of somebody, but he never, quite had the courage to do it himself, and he'd always get Roy to do that. Obviously there was an awful lot that I had to learn, and I really went to it. In fact, I even learned all about the printing business, and really got to understand the technical aspects of printing right down to how color is made and all that, which is very enjoyable--

Did that at Donnelley?

I did that at Donnelley, and--