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It was always there by the time you got there?

It was always, there. The reality of church and state, of course, was that the church and state knew how to work together. When they didn't, you had to do something about it, i.e. if the managing editor and the publisher didn't work together, one or the other went.

What was the positive part of the division, in other words, what did it protect?

It goes back to the old days when the advertiser was always threatening the publication, and if he were able to threaten the editor, that could be dangerous. The church and state were set up, in good part, to protect the editor from the assault of advertisers. In the old days, they did. If a publication didn't do what they thought it should do, they would withdraw their advertising. And they were doing it still in the 1940s and in the 1950s.

This was generic to all publishing?

All publishing. Newspapers and everything else. Church and state were set up in part to protect you against that. Also, the assumption, I think, was that the church was not only aesthetically more admirable but intellectually more admirable and that the commercial, the state, should not be telling the church what to do.