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When you say the assumption, and you're using those phrases, were those Time, Inc. phrases and was putting the power in the church's hand, was that at Time, Inc. you mean?

[sighs] To a considerable degree, it was Time, Inc. Because, if you look at the newspaper world, you look at largely family owned publications where church and state were the family, were one. At the New York Times, even today, the publisher is really also the editor. And, in fact, at Time, Incorporated in the earliest days the publisher was really the editor. His name was Harry Luce. He was the owner. I think Harry was trying to structure an organization that would survive him by creating church and state. The day would come when he would no longer be the owner and there would be a structure that would be balanced.

How strongly did he feel about the separation of church and state, in other words, editorial autonomy?

Strongly, strongly.

Any recollections come to mind through the years of him talking about it? Did he use that phrase?

Yes. He used that phrase, but I do not remember on what occasion.