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Oh, no, he was a very practical man. How do you think he got to be that rich? [laughter] You've got to remember that in the early, early days, Harry and whats-his-name--

Larson?

No, the other, the originator?

Haddon?

Haddon--alternated. In the very first year, it was Haddon who was the editor and Luce was the publisher, then called business manager. Then they kept alternating. That gives you the idea that he understood state as well as he understood church. He was always very smart about business. He had very good instincts about business. He was very smart about promotion. He was a very good promoter. No editor or publisher is any good if he's not a good promoter. Now, I don't know whether promotion is state or church, I assume it's state. Church isn't worth a damn without good promotion, so church isn't worth a damn without state.

Let's leave this for now because I want you to do some thinking about this, but how involved, focus on the 1940s, was Harry Luce in Life, in any way?

He was involved quite often in theorizing about the magazine. I have a memory of his, I think I mentioned it earlier, of