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In various periods of the company's history, depending on how it was doing economically, did division between church and state become less clear? Was it stronger in certain periods than in others?

In the period when Donovan was editor-in-chief and I was chairman and CEO, we were very clear about church and state. Of course, one of the reasons that we were very clear about it and able to deal with it was that he and I realized that there would be, conflicts between church and state and that part of our job was to resolve those conflicts. And he and I always did. Nobody knew what happened in the room when the door was closed between the two of us. The company sort of accepted that, if there was a conflict, somebody trying to arrogate too much power in one direction or the other, that it would be resolved in a dark room on the 34th floor.

Anything come to mind?

Not specifically. There must be something that comes to mind. I'll have to think about that because--I might even talk to Hedley about that.

Let's go back to the church and the state being in the form of one person. Until, it was Heiskell-Donovan and that was mostly Harry Luce, it is correct saying that he generally resolved church/state problems in favor of church or is that incorrect, when it was just Harry Luce on top?