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What about forest products?
And then we had a group vice president for forest products, namely Buckley.
Whose idea was it to get this other layer of management underneath the chief operating-officer and the chief executive--
Oh, it was just a necessity, because we just had too many operations, and there had to be this.
Did you ever have any management consultants help reorganize the company?
No, I didn't like to have consultants. I was anti-management consultants person, unlike my successors who spend millions on them. I only used a management consultant if I wanted to have somebody else say what I believed.
Then this reorganization--did you just more or less work it out with Donovan and Shepley?
Yes. Yes. Well, quite clearly Texas had to be run as an independent fiefdom. There were getting to be too many magazines. There were too many problems in the magazines. There had to be a boss for them. And books was then burgeoning, and was becoming--I
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