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at every meeting.

The academics weren't worth a damn--

Who are you referring to?

Heard and Horner. Alexander Heard and Horner. Don Perkins was a good--

I forgot. He was chairman of what?

Jewel Tea. And he retired at early age, and became really a professional director. He was a director of eight or ten companies, and was quite good as a professional director.

I guess that's about all I have to say about those people.

What about--did you begin any--I would presume that in that period that you were in was when some of the board committees were initiated. Do you recall doing that?

Well, yes. I can't remember exactly when the personnel committee was first created, or the--I assume we had to have a compensation committee of outside directors, and that must have been there by 1960. And we had to have an audit committee of outside directors. There wasn't very much “committee work.” There was a fin--

Any committee stand out in your mind at all as having been a--