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social work and civic agencies. In other words, he was very much outside of Columbia University, although he taught up there to earn his living. My memory is that he didn't even live up on Morningside Heights, but I'm not sure about that. Anyway, he was around and mixing with the general population much more than the average Columbia professor.

So the suggestion that Lindsay Rogers be asked to do this was a natural suggestion and might have come from any number of people, but it was certainly not because he was attached to the university.

I never heard of Rexford G. Tugwell of Columbia until he turned up writing speeches. I heard of Joseph D. McGoldrick, who later went to Columbia. He still is an outsider. He was deep in politics, public administration, city service and all sorts of things like that. I don't know when Adolph A. Berle went to Columbia, but I heard of him before '32. One always knew him. He wasn't tied up to Columbia either in people's minds. I yet don't know what he did. He wasn't around as much as Lindsay Rogers was. I don't think Berle was interested in social reform and civic activity very much. I think he was a law professor.

The people we went to when we wanted help on legal matters at Columbia were Joseph P. Chamberlain and Noel Dowling. They were at the law school. They ran what was