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city administration too, because the city had to bear its burden. The Governor certainly knew Hodson and I should have said that he knew him as well as he knew Hopkins, but I don't know if that was true or not. He knew him about the some, at any rate. I may be mistaken and Hopkins's own notes may show that he knew the Governor much better at that time, but my recollection is that he didn't.

My contact with Hopkins wasn't very personal, but it was fairly frequent. He knew how to do his job. It was a relief job. It certainly wasn't a Labor Department Job. I had no supervision of relief, except as its problems wove themselves into the problems of unemployment. He would be consulting me, and I him, about how this thing was going, was it getting worse, was it getting better, was there any hope of its getting better, how much more money would we have to ask for? For that the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the State Department of Labor had the best information with regard to the extent and increase of unemployment and the likelihoods. That kind of material, of course, we made constantly available to Hopkins. It would be about matters of that sort that we would be consulting.

I know that he appeared publicly in these hearings that took place before the unemployment commission. I think that he came and met with us two or three times when we were