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Frances PerkinsFrances Perkins
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to let a union grow up?

I asked how could a government prevent that? It couldn't prevent people from belonging to a union. You couldn't prevent people from forming an organization if they wanted to. It was a free country. They could do as they pleased. They had a right to do that. Government had no right to interfere. The government wouldn't think of interfering.

We talked on in that line. He got off this line which always stuck with me. He said, “I don't agree with you at all. I don't agree with that concept at all.”

I said, what do you think a government is anyhow, Mr. Lapham? A government mustn't interfere with people carrying on their own affairs. What do you think government should do, Mr. Lapham?”

He drew himself up and he said, “A government should rule.”

I remember I was so astonished. I said, “Oh, Mr. Lapham, think twice before you say that. If a government ruled in this country, where do you think you'd be? Where do you think the Waterfront Employers! organizations, any of these chambers of commerce, any of these

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