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Well, what I think happened was he got one of his office people to call and tell Ev Dirksen's secretary, “Frank Stanton's coming up and I wish you could get him in to see Dirksen. It won't take very long.” I could just hear him saying that.

So when I got there--

Remind me what you were going to see him about. I think you did tell us.

This was about an appointment that Johnson wanted to make of somebody from Illinois. So it was important to Dirksen, because it was one of his constituents. It was important to Johnson, because he wanted the man in the job. I think Johnson didn't believe that Dirksen was sold on the man for the job, but wouldn't openly oppose him, because he was one of his boys in his state. I was just being used as a spear-carrier.

Did you know Dirksen at all?

Did I know Dirksen? Oh, yes. Sure. He knew everybody. But I mean these guys all know you. They're not--and I suppose anybody was--although I'm much more aware of this today, in today's world politically, than I was when I was going through it. I used to think, “Gee, you know, these guys give me the time of day and I hardly know them.” And I was too naive to understand that they thought that I had more power with television than I had. And I see the courting that goes on today of the people in television and, in Clinton's case, the people in Hollywood.

I don't know whether you saw that big story in the Times Sunday. Disgusting. But at any