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But Gordon and I were very good--in fact, it was he who helped me make up mind, when I was having trouble with Lincoln Center on the sculpture over there--not to take the--

[END TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO; BEGIN TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE]

He and Florence Knoll had done the--not Travelers--one of the big life insurance company buildings up in Connecticut. What in the dickens was the name of it. But he did the building and she did the interiors. So that was another common thread on the finishing of the CBS Building was that Gordon and Knoll were close together there.

Was Paley happy with the completion of Black Rock?

Well, if he was, he never said so. And if he was unhappy, he never said so. I think he came close to being sort of proud of it when it got a whole string of awards, and I think he was a little grudging of his appreciation, but never said: “God, I'm glad you went ahead this way.”

I didn't care. By that time we had pretty well gone our separate ways in a lot of things, and I don't think--as a matter of fact, at that time we did a floor that was a floor where we had a dining room and a cafeteria, and we picked--the floor for that was the crossover floor. The first bank of elevators went to 20, and the second bank went from 20 to 38--or whatever the total building was. So this was where you crossed over.

We used that floor for a cafeteria, and Knoll said: “This is where we ought to have a change