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He was just in the process of biting the end of [his cigar], and I thought he was going to bite the cigar in half. He got right up and walked over and looked at it and said: “What is this?”

I said: “Well, this is a 33 ⅓ [rpm] long-playing record that we developed in our laboratory. And I thought I wanted to tell you about it, because I wanted to tell you that we're going to announce it. And if you're interested in doing the same thing for Victor, I would give you all of our know-how.”

He said: “Well, how could the little Columbia Gramophone Company develop something like this and I didn't know about it?” [Q. laughs]

I said: “Well, you know, we did it in the Headquarters building; we didn't do it at the plant.” And it was clear to me that he practiced industrial espionage and was caught with his pants down, because he didn't know that we were doing this.

I told him that we would give a demonstration for his people, and I think within 24 hours, if I'm not mistaken--or shortly thereafter--he brought over all of his engineers, and in the board room of CBS we had our engineers--Goldmark and the people who worked on it--sitting around this table. We gave them the demonstration that we had given him, and said we would answer any questions they had. But the basic idea was that we wanted them to join us, and we were going to give them our sweat and tears for free, in exchange for--there was nothing we could patent.

What Goldmark did was to take all of the state-of-the art and enhance it by developments in