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as the program that the Red Cross had. The controls and standards were less than ideal.

I toyed with the idea of getting the federal government to handle the whole blood program, or getting the Red Cross to handle it exclusively, to get this mixed kind of thing out of the picture. I didn't live long enough in the job to achieve that, and, in fact, Brud Holland wasn't able to make it work either. But then the Red Cross got into some problems of bad blood, of tainted blood.

Could you be more specific about that--when this happened?

I don't know. I wasn't there. This was after I left. But there were some cases where some impurities got into the blood. What those were I don't know. Whether it was H.I.V. or not, I'm not sure. But that called for all kinds of investigations, and I think John [David] Dingell [Jr.], who headed a House committee, gave the Red Cross a very rough time on its blood program.

I guess it's being gradually restored. But New York is no longer a part of the Red Cross now, and I think one other big market is independent. About forty to forty-five per cent of the blood is still transfused by the Red Cross; and in many countries--take Holland, for example. The blood program in Holland is run by the government, but the Red Cross is the mechanism that does the collection.

What was the relationship in this country between the government and the Red Cross standards for transfusion and collection? Were there any government controls, or did you consult with the government at all?