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Father [Theodore] Hessberg, who had been president of the University of Notre Dame, and the other one was the leader from South Africa, and I've forgotten his name at the moment. [Bishop Desmond Tutu] He dropped off, I guess he couldn't make the meetings because of the trip.

You mean Nelson Mandela?

No, no. If you hadn't asked me I would have thought--

We'll stick it in later.

I could go on at some length about Harvard, but that's how I got involved, and so far as I can tell among the thirty people on the Board when I was on it I guess I would be in the top ten percent in terms of amount of time I gave to it. It was an interesting board, interesting meetings.

Was it a board that required a lot of time and effort on the part of everybody?

Yes. You had meetings I believe six times a year, and that meant giving at least two days to those meetings. Then between meetings you had committee assignments. So I guess that the first year I was on the board I believe I made twenty three trips to Cambridge. So that's some indication of how involved I was.

What were some of the major issues you were dealing with at that time?