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Was Kesten actually offered the job?

Well, he could have had it if he wanted it, no question about that. Whether Paley offered it to him or not, I don't know. Paul was not happy when he got some pretty nasty I guess reactions from Paley about some of the things he wanted to do when he was Executive Vice President. Also, Paul didn't get along with Klauber and Klauber didn't help Kesten with Paley, in the least. And I think when Paley came down to the final decision, he probably might not have offered it, but certainly had gotten into conversation sufficiently with Paul that both knew that he could have it, if he could compose his personal problems as far as Paley was concerned. Paley was very social, or trying to be very social, and was very social in a cafe society kind of section. Paul had no interest in that, thought it was a lot of garbage, was very intolerant of the social set. Could have gotten along beautifully in it because he could have charmed the birds right out of the trees, Kesten could -- but he wasn't going to waste his time on the birds, that's all there was to it. So there was a reason why Kesten didn't take it. It might have had something to do with his health but I don't think so. But the morning after or the Monday after that fateful Saturday, I came in to see Paul and said, “Could we talk?” And because I was concerned about who would see us talking, and so forth, I said, “Let's go into the Board Room.” Nobody ever went into the Board Room except when there was going to be a Board meeting and we went in, didn't even turn on the lights, locked the door. And I talked to him like a Dutch uncle. Because at that time I figured I could talk to him as almost an equal because, up to that point it was -- while I called him Paul, I was deferential in front of everybody else. But I did let my hair down and try to talk to him almost as a brother. And I said, “This is a hell of an opportunity for you. If you don't want the social life, I don't want it either but I'll do it if you'll do the inside stuff, I'll do the donkey work. And we can make it go. And you be president and I'll be executive vice president. And