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interesting in either a documentary or serious music or for that matter serious drama. It didn't work. I mean, it affected everything. Wherever it went, it created problems. And it created problems in the sense that a lot of the audience went to the competition and once they go over and look at somebody else's program from nine to ten-thirty --

-- you lost them.

They might just find out there's something there that they like and never come back.

That's before remote control, again.

Sure.

What happened when this happened to -- did this happen a lot as entertainment was becoming the stronghold of CBS -- did this happen a lot to public affairs programming after the war, or to the news programs?

This is, in part, why you don't have much public affairs on the air, because there's no audience for it. That's one of the reasons. Another reason is that it's -- public affairs programs of the real serious, full-fledged documentary type, they're expensive programs to do because you can't just go out and shoot for a documentary without a lot of advance planning - -

-- research --