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It's said in a few books that -- It's said in a few places that I've read that you indeed did meet him. Whether that's true or not, I don't know.

I think I did. He was sitting to this end of my desk and it was -- I gave him the check. It was a very brief meeting. There were no pleasantries, just a customary “How are you?” but I mean, there was no -- I didn't know him as a senator. I had never testified before him. I detested his behavior and he knew that and so that was that. I would have the same problem with Jesse Helms.

To go back to the McCarthy period and CBS -- how CBS responded to that -- when was the first time that you would say you began to feel the pressures from advertisers about people who had potentially questionable affiliations, shall we say? I want to be careful with language here because it's for you to tell me what the language was.

The blacklisting is what you're really talking about and Red Channels and so forth.

But before Red Channels was there any pressure before Red Channels? Red Channels was published in 1950, is that it?

Oh, yes, well, the question about loyalty and some things of that kind came earlier than Red Channels.

That's what I'm trying to pinpoint.

But I can't fix the date on when this began. There was a -- and there still is --