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What form did the pressure from Washington take?

Oh, speeches on the Floor. Letters. Appearances on broadcasts on our own air, charging us with irresponsible behavior and so forth.

It was a grim period. And we didn't have many friends. Sure, the ACLU and the liberal side, the free speech people and so forth, were supportive, but they didn't carry much influence in Salt Lake City, Utah. And I don't mean to single out Salt Lake but, except for the two coasts, this is a pretty -- at that time was a pretty conservative country. And there were a lot of questions about the affiliations and the philosophy of the people who were delivering the news.

CBS also set up, at one point, something a bit more intensive than the actual loyalty oath. Political screenings, is that right?

Well, I don't know that there was any political screening. On the talent side, we had one man by the name of Dan [Daniel T.] O'Shea whose responsibility it was to clear people for participation in entertainment programs. I don't remember that Dan ever got involved in the news side. That was handled pretty much by the news people. But on the entertainment side, since many of these programs were not produced by us, and we didn't know anything about their background, O'Shea was the person who looked into it. Not a happy period. And I think we were as fair -- oh, this is self-serving -- but I think we were as fair as, certainly as any of the other broadcasting groups.

We were a lightning rod because we had Murrow in the family, and we had the top-rated